You are very ignorant--why don't you go to a mosque near you---it is Ramadan and you might get a free dinner---as well as be able to talk to actual Muslims---and see how the
I am not offended by such a posting. In fact, it actually gives me what I call a “teaching moment.”
This person calls me “ignorant” and they have every right to do so. I will not deny them that right. I would disagree, and here are my reasons:
A. The person assumes that I have a very limited knowledge of Islam. I would contend that assumption is incorrect. I have, for instance, read much of the Quran, the Islamic faith’s equivalent of the Christian Bible. I also have read many other writings on the history of Islam, the history of the Arabian Peninsula, the history of South Asia. All this has given me part of my perspective on the religion, which I hold is not necessarily “evil” or “bad”, no more than any other religion is. It does, however, have some what I call “disturbing” tenets which call for violence against non-believers.
B. The person seems to be laboring under the impression that I have never sat down with some of the Islamic religion and had a discussion about the differences from the Judeo-Christian background I was raised in (my grandfather that I knew and lived with and gave me my first Bible was a Congregationalist minister and missionary). Again, an incorrect assumption. I had the pleasure of having lengthy discussions with a man my parents were assisting in his studies at a private college in California. This gentleman, and he truly was a gentle man, was – according to his story – the minister of secondary education in Afghanistan and a tutor to the king’s son at that time. He taught me a little about his language and about Arabic, the language of Islam, as well as about Afghanistan and sparked my interest later to spend a considerable time studying the history of South Asia in college. But fast forward almost 30 years; I was in Saudi Arabia and Kuwait for more than half a year in 1990-1991. Granted, I was in the service of the United States Army, but I was not off on some isolated desert base. No, I was living and working among Muslims, representing many different countries. They will tell I was a curious American. I was always asking them if they could find me a good English version of the Quran (none did, although I finally was able to download one off the Internet) and I would take every opportunity to engage them in conversations that involved their religion, their customs and culture. I spent many hours in conversation with the Saudi Bedouin prayer leader at a business I visited weekly for three months while I waited for projects I was overseeing to be completed. I also shared green tea and conversation with the Lebanese businessman who owned the printing press where the newspaper I was editor of for the US Army was printed. I learned a lot from these encounters. Then, while I was in Kuwait for two weeks, I again had many encounters with local people with whom I had interesting discussions.
So, I don’t consider myself fluent in all the facets of Islam, I am conversant enough to hold what I feel are valid opinions on the subject. I also would point out that the Saudis, as the custodians of The Two Holy Mosques, do play a major role in Islam.
Now, the teaching moment: It is not wise to assume when you don’t know. This person, who did not identify their self, leaves me wondering whether or not they are a Muslim? I have no way of knowing. I have no way of knowing really what country they are from.
I do have a first impression of this person: They are not very polite. I would not call him ignorant. I have no way of knowing whether he has the knowledge base to be able to qualify him to not be ignorant, but I am not going to call ignorant, because I don’t know. However, I do know that being rude is not one of the tenets of Islam.
That is one of the problems we have in the world: People making assumptions. Assumptions, more often than not, turn out to be wrong.
A second problem is that we tend to make things personal. Rather than point out where I have erred, rather than take the time to show me why this person’s perception of the world is more accurate than mine, the person merely tells me I am ignorant. Wrong answer.
Now, I have pointed out many times in my posts that I happen to believe that people are not monolithic. That just because a person is (A), then all people are (A). That I think would be a very silly position to take.
I do think that most people do share a desire to survive and live a more comfortable life, if possible. I also believe most people would rather do it with less effort rather than more. Note that I said “most people”. When you are dealing with people, all are unique individuals (except maybe identical twins, but even then their life experiences are different and unique), and therefore you are not dealing with absolutes.
Now, I agree that probably the majority of those who profess to be Muslims are basically like most other people in their desires and don’t really give a rat’s behind about what other people think or believe. It doesn’t affect them.
However, there seems to be a substantial subset that does not have a willingness to be tolerant of the peculiarities of others who may happen to believe differently than they do. We see this when we see riots across the Muslim world when some obscure Christian minister of a small church in Florida announces he plans to burn the Quran as part of his worship service. Now, that was not limited to the Arabian peninsula or North Africa or even just South Asia.
Then there was the riots set off by the publication in a Danish periodical of caricatures of Mohammad, the Islamic prophet who plays the same role for Muslims as Jesus plays for Christians. Those weren’t just limited to Saudi Arabia or some Arab country.
The Muslim author Salmun Rushdie faces a death sentence because he wrote a book that was a satire about some of the parts of the Islamic religion.
We see this when Muslims all over the place react violently when some soldiers disposing of paper materials on an Afghan base burn some Qurans.
I can not visit Mecca or Medina, but Muslims can visit Jerusalem or Rome or London or just about any city in the U.S.
And now the Saudi government seems intent on making insulting the faith a criminal offense.
These things distress me, not because ALL Muslims believe that way, but with more than a billion adherents, even if it is just .01 percent who believe absolutely that infidels should die, then that would make up a very large body of people.
Granted, the Christian church has its extremists as well, and I believe these “cults” should be denounced and treated with disdain, but that does not excuse the need for Islam to come to an accommodation that lets it adherents accept without malice those who believe in a different view of God.
Enough rambling. Via Con Dios and Enshallah..
7 comments:
I am the anonymous (muslim)person that previously commented on your ignorance. If I have offended you I apologise---perhaps I should rephrase and say you are lacking in knowledge about Islam today, about what the Quran says and about the "importance" of Saudi Arabian (wahabi/salafi) brand of Islam....among other things.....
I had not expected you to take my comment seriously as usually those who see things through a prism of prejudice rarely do. However, I concede I may have been mistaken---perhaps it is not genuine prejudice, simply a lack of knowledge that flavors your perspective.
My suggestion that you visit a local mosque was based on the (mistaken) assumption of your prejudice---the best way to remove this is to encourage a prejudiced person to realize that "labels" only divide us superficially and we are all brothers and sisters in humanity, with the same desires and aspirations.
Surah 41, verse 34
"Nor can goodness and evil be equal. Repel (evil) with what is better: Then he between whom and you was hatred become as it were your friend and intimate."
Mr. Anonymous Muslim:
Your apology is most humbly accepted, enshallah, and I find hope and agreement that what you are saying.
I suggest that a lot of the conflict is due to the differences in perspective and an unwillingness to accommodate those differences in others.
I am not as blind so as to be unable to see that in my country and among those who call themselves Christians that we have those who refuse to allow others the right/dignity to practice their religion in the way that they wish.
Yes, it is a conflict. Yes, it is difficult, especially to reconcile the different practices, the differing views of morality, the differing ethics.
Yet I am one who was taught to believe and accept that people are different and have a right to be different. They have the right to see God/Allah/Jehovah/Vishnu/Buddha … (I know I am leaving out a host of deities, but I ask forgiveness) … in their own way and accepting one or more as their vision of the “truth”.
Please, kind sir, understand that I respect your views, however I may disagree with them. I only wish more people around the world, who profess to be Muslims (as I also wish those of all religions), would be more open to according respect and dignity to those with whom they disagree.
I find pleasure and value in our conversation here. Hope, as well, that you also find it welcome.
As “true believers” in our respective faiths, it is natural (and right) that we believe our view is the truth and the correct one. However, in my humble view, only God, or Allah, knows the truth. We humans merely have perspectives of it. As the Greek philosopher Plato described it: We only see the truth as shadows on a wall.
I agree that we must fight evil, and hope that we share some of those concepts of what is evil. I also hope that even though I may never meet you in person, that you would accept my hand in an offer of friendship, respect and dignity despite how our perspectives on the world may differ. May God (and Allah) be with you.
rhb
Thankyou for your kindness.
"I only wish more people around the world, who profess to be Muslims (as I also wish those of all religions), would be more open to according respect and dignity to those with whom they disagree."
---John F Kennedy said "Tolerance implies no lack of commitment to one's own beliefs. Rather it condemns the oppression or persecution of others"
The Quran also speaks about tolerance....
Surah 49, v 13
"O mankind, We created you from a single (pair) of male and female and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know each other (Not that you may despise each other)."
....Yet,in my opinion, to forcibly supress intolerant views---IS being intolerant and oppressive. Therefore, the only other way is for good people to stand up against intolerance by exposing prejudice for what it is and emphasising our shared brotherhood in humanity. However, this becomes twice as difficult when Westerners, under the influence of Islamophobia, generalize Islam as backward, evil, or supremacist and some groups within Islam counter the globalization and modernism/post-modernism through an intolerant, strict, simplistic brand of Islam.
So, a Muslim is left fighting on two fronts---from outside as well as from within. Instead if Good people stood together to fight all types of intolerance---we would all succeed and be better off for it.
Surah 3 verse 104
"Let there arise out of you a band of people inviting to all that is good, enjoining what is right, and forbidding what is wrong: They are the ones to attain felicity."
....and as John McCain recently said about intolerance "...it defames the spirit of our nation and we all grow poorer because of it"
May God give us guidance and courage.
We, indeed, are “brothers under the skin” as the saying goes. The battle against intolerance is something we share on all fronts. I agree that the best weapon against intolerance is to stand up and expose it. I would point out, from a Western perspective, it becomes difficult for Westerners, when Jihadis – under whatever influence we want to call it – generalize the West, Christianity, Judaism as evil or supremacist. They look at the free exchange of goods and ideas and attack those that are different from the worldview they hold. This, much as it makes Muslims distrustful of “Westerners”, makes Westerners distrustful of Muslims.
“Westerners” are a very diverse category of people, just as I suspect people are in your, what I am guessing is, Southeast Asian home. There are enough intolerant people on all sides to make the task of seeking brotherhood daunting. This is not to say that it is not a worthy goal, for it is. But the realist must accept humanity, in all its shapes and colors and mindsets, as it is and for most people, unfortunately, tolerance is not a virtue they tolerate very well.
You, kind sir, I would say that you are among those for whom an “Enlightenment” (using the metaphor of the European-Judeo-Christian period of Enlightenment as a reference) already is underway. You, and those like you, are reexamining the words of the Quran and of the Prophet, with an emphasis on tolerance and brotherhood rather than forcing or coercing non-believers to accept the Prophet as the last and only true spokesman of Allah/God or believers to follow a particular view of Islam. You may take offense at what I say, or perceive it as being condescending, but that if far from my intent.
I want to thank you for your willingness to engage in a conversation and an exchange in ideas. I only wish more around the world were willing to do the same instead of taking up arms.
It is not that I am opposed to taking up arms, mind you. I was a soldier, but from a soldier’s perspective I know what an obscenity war is. It is not something that should be taken up lightly but there are things that are worth defending: Our lives, our freedom to think and believe and be different, and our families.
I hope my random thoughts help you discuss with your family, friends and neighbors these issues in that the thoughts we share can be spread.
To this I will say a phrase I learned in Latin so long ago: Pax vobiscum.
Or in English: Peace be with you.
Or in Arabic, the mother tongue of Islam: السلام يكون معكم.
Or, what I suspect is your native tongue: ความสงบไปด้วย
Tolerance, universalism, compassion and mercy are strong themes of the Quran. How we understand these themes depends on our level of intelligence and spirituality. Because God has created us in diversity, all of us will not have the same degree of understanding--but that is ok, because our diversity helps us grow in compassion and tolerance.
fighting---In Surah 2, the Quran explains that though we may find fighting distasteful, it may have good in it---then it goes on to explain that oppression is worse than slaughter and it can become necessary to fight those who insist on oppression. However, the Quran also makes clear that there is no compulsion in religion (some examples---2:256, 3: 20, 10:99...and others)
---to struggle for liberty and fight against oppression is not uniquely "Islamic" as the struggle has been played out in Western history as well----however, for the West to forget this universal desire and align themselves with the oppressive powers is really shortsighted and counterproductive. The Europeans have done this through colonialism and the Americans do this through their blind foreign policy.
"West" as "supremacist"---Is actually a "Western" narrative, in my opinion......(see "White man's burden"--Europe and "manifest destiny"--U.S. to get an idea of what I am saying) .....though I agree with you that "supremacy" of one kind or another is a general human flaw.
However, any Western policies that promote luxury and liberties as their "right" at the expense of "others" whom they consider unworthy of either luxury or liberty--- can feed into the "supremacist" narrative. (The BRICS alignment arose out of this perception)
Instead, if all peoples were to acknowledge that God-given natural resources are for all humanity to be shared fairly and justly for the equal benefit of all---this would change human interaction by reducing unneccessary tensions arising out of unfair, unjust policies.
"They look at the free exchange of goods and ideas and attack those that are different"----What may seem "free exchange" to a Westerner, may not be the reality of an non-Westerner. For example---it may seem a free exchange of goods to a Westerner when their oil companies explore and extract oil from foreign soil---it may not seem that way to the citizens of the country under whose feet the oil/gas is, if they do not enjoy any of the benefits of the profits---(see latin America and the nationalization of their oil and gas ) I am not trying to judge any policy---only pointing out that perceptions may be different.
Likewise---"free-exchange of ideas" should be practiced---but it is not actually either in the West or the East. For example, when American news media tried to air tapes of Bin Laden---those that outlined his views---that the U.S. should remove their bases from Saudi Arabia,...etc, the U.S. government did not allow it. There was also a time when American citizens of a Muslim background were investigated because they were thought to hold views that the government did not approve. Others were not allowed to enter the U.S. because of their views ---I think that a "free exchange of ideas" is an important principle that all countries need to improve on particularly in the East but also the West.
....continued....
As a Muslim---I am aware of the many areas that we Muslims can improve on---and there are also many practices and ideas that must be discarded....this ongoing struggle for betterment is also expressed in the Talmud
"Do not be daunted by the enormity of the worlds grief.
Do Justly now,
Love mercy now,
walk humbly now,
You are not obligated to complete the work,
but neither are you free to abandon it."
Without criticism we cannot improve. The way forward is for all of us to help each other in pointing out areas of improvement---while also realizing we need to look at ourselves critically.
I thank you for this conversation and I am indeed with you in wishing for peace in the world.
Salamalaikum.
Please see my post - Islam: A continuing dialogue
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